Hanalei, Hawaii Monday, February 08, 2010

State Of SubSonic, November 2007

I've been reading through the forums, getting up to speed on a lot of issues and what's plainly evident is that I've been busy for far too long. The good news is that I'm getting "in the swing" here and have begun my work on SubSonic in earnest, once again.

I've been reading through the forums, getting up to speed on a lot of issues and what's plainly evident is that I've been busy for far too long. The good news is that I'm getting "in the swing" here and have begun my work on SubSonic in earnest, once again. So, to make this very plain:

SubSonic is NOT dead, not mired in anything, not even stalled. We've been sidetracked by flippin Real Life (way overrated). That's over.

To that end, I've expanded a bit on my previous post and want to share with you what's afoot.

Forum Issues: Toss our forums and move them to a more usable system. I blew it with this one - I thought it would come out differently but I learned something here: never fight a land war in Asia, and never use your own forum system until it's ready. I've talked with the current commiters and they are all over getting the SubSonic forums up to snuff, and there's a great vision on where they should go (lightweight "BlogEngine.NET"-style) and so off they go - we may be back.

I've been freakishly evaluating forum systems and the winner, easily, was phpBB. But it's almost impossible to get data from another forum into it so I tossed it and went with the Runner-up, YetAnotherForum. The only reason these guys were runner up is the UI is really, really "forum-y" and I will need to do some design work. Either way - this is top of the list (and the guy is from Hawaii!) and the import is happening today/tomorrow with the rollover coming, hopefully, in the next week or so.

Bug Fixes and Patches: Concurrently, Eric is attacking the work items/patches on CodePlex. He's back, he's married, and he's mad as hell. Ok he's not mad - he's much too nice to ever get mad (unless you're a raving conservative).

New Project Site: I need to revamp our site with much more complete docs. I have Sandcastle sitting here in front of me, as well as a secret little documenter tool I've been working on :). Between the two we're going to get this API doc'd as it should be.

In addition, we'll re-org a bit and make the site much easier to navigate. This won't take too much time - but it needs to happen. We need much better support.

Clamping Down: There's a lot of "unfinished" work, namely in our providers and our REST/JSON bits. I'm going to actively look for help with regards to getting all of our providers up to snuff so we can release this with a smile on our faces.

Alternate Templates: I created a set of "MVC" templates previously that are being used pretty extensively. I'll tidy these up and make them work nicely.

 

Moving Forward with .NET 3.5
We're shelving the query tool update that we've been planning. In fact we're shelving any further feature change/innovation in favor of moving forward with .NET 3.5.

There are soooo many language enhancements to .NET 3.5 that we have a chance to refactor and trim our feature set really nicely. For instance, our entire Sugar library can be redone as extension methods - which is what they should be.

In addition, as many know, we have a lot of love coming for the new MVC framework.

It doesn't make sense to rev two branched versions of SubSonic that run on a different platform, so the next major version will be a version rev to 3.0, and will work on .NET 3.5 only.

This doesn't mean we won't support/fix/tweak/patch 2.0 - we'll always try to make it better. But in terms of features, it's pretty much set.

 

New Features for 3.0
Query Tool Upgrade
: Eric and I have been talking a lot about the query tool and how to make it work with LINQ. I think we have a nice scheme planned, so expect to see a new query tool as we've discussed in the past.

Migrations: Finishing this up. Finally.

MVC Support: We're going to throw all kinds of love at the new MVC toolset. All Kinds. It'll be magic. And we'll cook up some nice reference apps for you to play with. More on that later (when I figure out just what features I'll be working on in the MVC toolset. Damn it's nice being on the inside :).

 

Writing a Book
I've been contacted by 3 different publishers - major ones - on writing a book about SubSonic and MVC (myself and the team). I'm still working on the details (like finding time to call them back) but I'm very, VERY excited to do this, and to finally write a book that's not only informative but FUN to read.

 

Begging For Help
This is ongoing. Forum help, docs, forum moderators... really just about anything. I'm extremely picky about our commit list (I have to be) but would love to talk to you if you're interested in ... well anything. My email is my full name at gmail. Do let me know.


Scott Peterson - November 28, 2007 - Rob:

It sounds like you are having to make hard decisions based on lack of time; I don't envy you there.

I'm glad to see that the forums will be up and running, and that bug fixes/patches will be a priority. Each time I've tried to use SubSonic I've hit small bugs, so I'm looking forward to the fixes (one was for spaces in table names, which is evil, but that's what I've got).

The book idea sounds cool, but books get so out of date so fast. How will you make it viable down the road? Will it have companion PDF's between editions, or on-line updates for purchasers? It's your call, but it sounds like alot of work/time for minimal give-back to Subsonic.

I'm really looking forward to the MVC bits, as we have a project that has as its requirements, "... ASP.NET 2.0 using an MVC architecture." Gads, VS 2008 and MVC may be along just in time...

Thanks for all your efforts,

Scott
Dirk - November 28, 2007 - Fantastic, I support each and every one of the decisions you lined up :-)
And the MVC framework... I have been refreshing my RSS reader like mad to get news from ScottGu (less than two weeks for the CTP?); I even tried to explain MVC to some non-IT colleagues who have now decided I've finally gone mad :->

Thanks for the heads up

Dirk
Chris van de steeg - November 28, 2007 - Can't wait to see what magic is coming from subsonic to the MVC framework! I'm sure it will be great!
Ian Hughes - November 28, 2007 - We recently installed a YAF instance inside of another application. It is a great piece of software on the whole, but you're right when you mention the form stuff. It requires more than a little-bit of jigglin' to get it working inside of your current site's framework. However, it's free, open source, and has been loved (hopefully not physically) for quite a while; which generally adds up to a stable product. In the end its all just a bunch of user controls which you can re-write to fit your needs without rolling them from scratch. I think you will be happy with it!
Chris - November 28, 2007 - Hey Rob,

Are there any plans to make SubSonic play nicely with WCF? I was pretty heavy into the WCF stuff a while back and my understanding of it is that it won't handle the serialization of generic types. I've checked the SubSonic forums and it looks like folks are running into this problem, so is there any insight on how you plan to handle it or not handle it?

Thanks,
Chris
Chris - November 29, 2007 - Oh, and how do you get those cool quote images around things you quote?
oVan - November 29, 2007 - I'm really looking forward to the SubSonic MVC combination, I hope ScottGu gives us the good news soon!

I'm also very much like your idea of writing a book. I know that there are a ton of IT books out there, but none about SubSonic, and probably not many from authors with your very entertaining writing style (Scott Kelby is perhaps an exception).

Thanks!
oVan
mike - November 29, 2007 - Great to hear your working on these 'issues'. I have been looking at SubSonic and overall it misses polish and focus. Polish: There's no documentation in the intellisense, half the time I don't know if I should use the query, the active record, the controller (that name is confusing) or the query command. Focus: SubSonic is no longer a framework, it's a set of loosely connected projects that includes things like Sugar and even a CMS. Imho this distracts from what should be the core functionality: working with databases. The more you stuff into it, the less clear it will be. It does not help that you want to create more templates, and target ASP.NET MVC. What's next, a view engine? Good luck with all the work, it's still great to have SubSonic!
Stuart Allen - November 29, 2007 - Glad to see you getting back in the fold. .NET 3.5 is really going to rock for us web devs, now if only I can get my slow IT dept to install it on the servers.
Chris van de Steeg - November 29, 2007 - @Mike: don't really agree with you there on the focus-part Subsonic is still just a framework... adding some sugar doesn't change that. Everyone always has a library with frequently used snippits with their projects. On the subsonicproject that's the sugar, just a nice name for 'lib' :) The subsonic.cms is definitely not part of the subsonicproject itself, it's just a getting-you-started with subsonic project. A starter-site, proof of concept, or whatever you want to name it.
The Daily Find #7 - TechToolBlog - November 29, 2007 - [...] State of SubSonic - Is SubSonic relevant anymore with Linq? Rob promises really good MVC support so maybe. [...]
IronRuby - November 29, 2007 - @Rob MVC Support: We're going to throw all kinds of love at the new MVC toolset. All Kinds. It'll be magic. And we'll cook up some nice reference apps for you to play with. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hi Rob, It would be nice if you blog once again and get some views about, which type of nice applications the community requires (which you are trying to create.) It would be nice if you can create few existing starter kits in to SubSonic / MVC Magic. It would be also nice if you can create a starter kit from scratch in your MVC book. Creating a "starter kit from scratch the Asp.Net MVC way " would be a nice idea. BeerHouse Starterkit book followed the same way and still preserved on shelves. Just my few cents, you are the better judge.
Erik Lane - November 29, 2007 - I'm interested to hear your comments once you dig into YAF. I've been using it and I've only kept using it because the functionality works. However, I've been unpleasantly surprised when I dig into to make a change or a customization to it.
Josh Stodola - November 29, 2007 - @ Chris

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Mark - November 29, 2007 - Rob, Have you seen LINQPad? http://www.linqpad.net/ By the authors of "C# 3.0 in a Nutshell" to support book.
Fredrik - November 30, 2007 - Hello Rob, Can you guide me in short with this. Sorry, but there are many unclear things looping in my mind. How close do you think asp.net MVC is when compared to ROR ( Ruby On Rails ) Does Asp.Net MVC has something like Active Record or they are using a different ORM pattern If i spend more time on ROR currently, will it help me in asp.net MVC in future....? Do you compare SubSonic closer to Asp.Net MVC or ROR This will really help me.
Wöchentliche Rundablage: ASP.NET MVC, Visual Studio 2008, .NET 3.5, Silverlight, SubSonic, WPF… | Code-Inside Blog - December 3, 2007 - [...] zeigt eine Roadmap und wie momentan das Projekt [...]
Paraag kantharia - December 21, 2007 - Hi Rob, Have you started with your Book...? Make sure it covers MVC and SubSonic from Scratch Cant wait to read this great book of yours. Best Wishes in advance.
Rob Conery » SubSonic: Version 2.1 (Pakala) Preview: The New Query Tool - January 10, 2008 - [...] I can. We have an issue with how to rev SubSonic with respect to loving both .NET 2.0 and .NET 3.0. I’ve noodled on this a lot, and I think our current plan is the [...]
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