Hanalei, Hawaii Tuesday, February 09, 2010

Hey Cool Kids - Alt.Crank is Boring

I don't like categorizations, and I "super" don't like it when people hoist a flag to identify themselves and "how they roll" in an exclusive way. When I first heard the term "Alt.

Sunday, December 02, 2007

I don't like categorizations, and I "super" don't like it when people hoist a flag to identify themselves and "how they roll" in an exclusive way. When I first heard the term "Alt.Net" I thought it was funny - it made me laugh. Then I read the "Hot or Not" Alt.Net post from Roy Osherove and I remember thinking to myself "oh nooooes! Not a manifesto!".

No offense Roy - but this is the kind of thing that puts up the "Cool Kids" kind of fence that drives me nuts.

dazednconfused In fact, that's the term I've been using for Alt.Netters - the "Cool Kids" :). Can't help it - it just seems to fit :).

This Isn't Flame Bait
To be sure, we all like to identify ourselves with different groups. It's human nature. The pathetic thing is when people go out of their way to create ridiculous categorizations and then dump people in them arbitrarily.

I read Jeff Atwood's post the other day about the two-types of programmers and all I could do was shake my head. Usually Jeff's post are something we should all aspire too. The man is a gem, and probably the poster child of how to blog.

I'm not trying to take a swipe here; I just really dislike divisive posts, in any fashion. I didn't get past the first sentence. I literally clicked away, knowing that what was coming was yet another summation of our industry, and the millions of people in it, wrapped up nicely into little buckets for easy digestion:

Contrary to myth, there aren't fourteen types of programmers. There are really only two, as Ben Collins-Sussman reminds us...

Seems I'm not the only one to disagree - Jeff got some pretty aggressive responses:

There are really only 2 types of people in the world: those who make ridiculous generalizations... and those who don't

I'm not certain what Jeff was trying to say with his post (it's probably because I didn't read it all) - friends have tried to point out that he was just trying to muster some energy around blogging and getting people to look outside their dreary existence inside their 80% world. Sounds good - just came off a little "Blogging From The Mount"-ish.

It was well-intended and Jeff did follow up with a sort of "you're all Cool Kids cause you read my blog" response, which made me feel lots better :).

I'm not attacking Jeff - it was a good post and I know what he meant. I think his idea just got away from him a bit (as he pointed out). It happens.

And Now Back To Our Point - Or Why This Post Isn't About Jeff Atwood
It's the Cool Kid thing - it grates on me after a while and I think there's an element of this in the extreme in the Alt.Net camp that, to me, is getting a little obnoxious.

Overall I really like the Alt.Net concept - which is basically saying "there's more to geek life than what's in the blue Microsoft box" - or put another way: "I can install Linux!". I don't mean to get negative on Alt.Net, and I'll apologize if I'm offending any of the Cook Kids right now.

Alt.Net is all about the options out there, and pushing yourself to think outside of Microsoft toolset. But there is an undercurrent of crankiness out there that's sabotaging this lovely effort, and I think it's time for those guys to consider what Microsoft is doing here, and maybe try supporting it a bit - cause the cranky thing is getting a little boring.

In fact I think people are starting to feel the same as me - isn't there a way to somehow filter out the negativity? At this point it's just boring. How many more times can you read about why M$ is evil and as Sam Ramji put it to me one day (yes I stole this from him for a post title):

Oh look! Darth Vader's wearing black today! (yawn)

So - Alt.Crank guys - what would it take to make you happy? What if you could actually go in and change things? It's not as crazy an idea as it seems...

Am I A Glory Hound?
I spose you're all wondering why I care so much about these guys "blogging bile". The truth is that I'm now on the inside - and I really care. I have a chance to do some good work, and make some changes, and I'd like it if people recognized that Microsoft it willing/wanting to move in a great direction here.

I've already started pushing things internally a bit - so much so that I keep waiting for the phone to ring and Shawn says to me "we need to discuss a few things". That hasn't happened (they're very, very patient) and not only are they patient - they are listening and thinking about the ideas that are being offered by people like me, Phil, and Scott Hanselman.

So, here I am, flexxing my reputation and career to make a difference in a company which I've based my living on. Are YOU willing to do the same?

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Chad Myers - December 2, 2007 - Rob: Notice how almost all of your links about ALT.NET are to Bellware's site? Bellware is not the official representative for all of ALT.NETdom (if there is such a thing). There's lots of good out there too that you might be missing by focusing only on Bellware's in-your-face-style blog posts. And one other thing, by (Scott's) definition, you're not a gloryhound, so he wasn't slamming you (or any of the recent blog-to-hires) as far as I can tell. You actually contribute to the community, you have non-braindead opinions, you don't just spout the party line, etc. Oh yeah, you actually KNOW what Ruby is which makes you definitely NOT a Gloryhound. Not to defend Bellware, but he's not necessarily flaming Microsoft for making .NET, he's flaming Microsoft for making .NET and then letting the marketing wonks take over and smear it with crazy/confusing product names, focusing on features, features, features instead of developers, developers, developers, re-inventing proven community-created technologies, etc. These are all valid criticisms. Just because Microsoft made .NET doesn't mean that we should let them get away with murder. Microsoft does not NOT have a God given right to be on top of the developer frameworks war. It could easily start losing it if they keep harming the community. 5 years ago you'd be nuts for saying that IE would ever drop below 90% marketshare, now it's plummeting.

Rob Conery - December 3, 2007 - @Chad - You know, I didn't mean to single Scott out - I had a mess of links going and through the process of editing down my post, the links ended up tilted. I know Scott's not Mr. Alt.net - but his posts are indicative of what I'm talking about. Good point though - I didn't mean to use his posts as a sole reference. But I think we both know there are plenty more out there... The Glory Hound thing was a joke :). Should have added more smileys. Murder? God? Harming? Did you mean to use those illustrations? Kind of made me think twice about responding. You sure you wanna go there? Do you actually KNOW that MS Marketing drove the spec for .NET? Or is this something you THINK. If it's something you THINK - I'd like to know more - who/what/when. This is a good discussion (if it's true) - would love to hear more about it. Cause I have to say... it sounds a little ... well inflammatory :).

Jon Galloway - December 3, 2007 - I kind of agree, in substance, with what you're saying. I've felt that there's probably some good discussion going on in the ALT.NET world, but I don't have the time to filter the vague but heated negativity. I'd rather just read Ayende's blog, since he expresses and illustrates his points so well.

It's unfortunate that so many people got upset at Jeff's post without really reading it. I think it's one of his best, and points out something I've definitely I've experienced: the .NET blogging community is a bit of an echo chamber at times, and we forget that most developers have never heard of this whole ALTDOTBBQ thing and would think it's ridiculous if you tried to explain it to them. There's absolutely no negativity directed at that majority, rather it's an admission that those of us who stay up late at night thinking about this stuff (.NET and Open Source and development methodologies, etc.) are often preaching to the choir. It's an indictment of our communication style and effectiveness, not on the audience.

Rob Conery - December 3, 2007 - @Jon- I just reread his post and I think the problem is the title/first sentence. Jeff knows all too well the value of a title and I think it set a little too deeply in people's minds and colored the rest of the post. Lord knows I had the same issue with my Rails post... I read Ayende's (many) daily posts and I kind of wish the recent ones were a little more balanced.

Evan - December 3, 2007 - @Rob,

Since a lot of us ALT.NETers read your blog, are you going to follow in Atwood's steps and post a "you're cool because you read my blog" post too? lol :-)

Seriously though:

"So, here I am, flexxing my reputation and career to make a difference in a company which I've based my living on. Are YOU willing to do the same?"

I'm here and ready to go. Was there something specific you had in mind?

BTW: I wouldn't mind seeing you on the altnetconf mailing list. Just make sure your email client can do threaded conversations (or it will be overwhelming).

Evan

Ayende Rahien - December 3, 2007 - Rob, Yes, I had a lot to say about MS in the last few days. I anticipated that this can be a problem to MS employees, and I explicitly made the separation between MS the company and MS employees. But, do you have anything specific to say about my recent posts? I am frustrated by what MS is doing, and I am willing to discuss this. It can be in the blogs, in the mailing list or in private, if you prefer so. Microsoft has a huge influence on my professional life, and I don't like to see it doing things that ends up making my life harder. Frankly, I believe I would be irresponsible not to care.

Haacked - December 3, 2007 - I have to echo what Evan says, be sure to have a good threaded reader. I installed Thunderbird almost specifically for ALT.NET (it has good IMAP support which I needed for GMail).

Dave Savage - December 3, 2007 - Rob,
To me it's moot - both you and Jeff have valid points. It's not so wrong to analyze the industry now and then even if it means applying unfair labels or "categories" to people.

Ray Houston - December 3, 2007 - Rob, I understand what you're saying. The name "ALT.NET" itself has a negative aspect to it and I'm not particularly fond of it, but there are a lot of good discussions on the lists. I believe there is an annoying level of negativity largely because Microsoft has ignored many of the opinions of the community. People are making noise because Microsoft hasn't been paying attention. I also believe that the group is helping to change that with discussions like this. Do you have any suggestions on how Microsoft can better communicate with the community?

Brian Lowry - December 3, 2007 - Rob, I agree with you. While I see the huge benefit in having Alt.Net pushing to do things in a less "Enterprisey" way, I do feel like posts I have been reading from the Alt.Net world can come across as incendiary. Its counter-productive. -Brian

Matt Blodgett - December 3, 2007 - "So, here I am, flexxing my reputation and career to make a difference in a company which I've based my living on. Are YOU willing to do the same?" Rob, are you offering us all jobs? :)

Chad Myers - December 3, 2007 - @Rob "Murder? God? Harming? Did you mean to use those illustrations? Kind of made me think twice about responding. You sure you wanna go there?" Murder was overly dramatic. Sorry. But many at Microsoft (I have dealt with many personally) do seem to believe it is Microsoft's God-given right to do whatever they want and that all the best technology comes from them and only them. Granted, many of the worst offenders of this were DE's. Also, it seems that many of the 'softies replying to Ayende's criticism seem to take it personally, rather than acknowledging and being concerned that some of the LEADERS in the community are upset with how Microsoft is treating them. Instead of complaining here about your customers (like it or not, YOU are Microsoft now) you should've called him on the phone and talked with him and figured out how you can make Microsoft better. Instead, your replies are arrogant, insulting, and anti-customer. This is what I mean by 'God-given' right. Whenever someone criticizes Microsoft, the first response from 'softies seems to be to label their most influential customers as 'cranky' and 'anti-MS' or 'haters'. This is not productive. And you criticize ME for argument inflammation? "Do you actually KNOW that MS Marketing drove the spec for .NET?" Oh man, I hope that's the case. What other possible argument could their be for the whole original naming fiasco of .NET 1.0, or now the latest "WTF" with the '.NET 3.0' which is a misnomer. If not the marketing folks, who is responsible for this? Please, please, PLEASE tell me it's not a developer person. If that's the case, then I'm very afraid of the direction of .NET. I can excuse silly marketing wonks making dumb product naming decisions, but I can't excuse developers making silly marketing/product naming decisions. "Or is this something you THINK. If it's something you THINK - I'd like to know more - who/what/when." Someone is responsible for the original .NET naming fiasco (think: Hailstorm, Windows Live, .NET, etc) and someone (else?) is responsible for the embarrassment of the naming of ".NET 3.0". If not marketing, then whom? I know I'm cranky, I'm sorry, but some of this stuff is inexcusable. Microsoft's response to some of the leaders in the .NET community who are giving VALID feedback and criticisms has been derision, dismissal, and denial. Do you think Ayende was wrong for being cranky? Do you think I'm wrong for being cranky? You're right, BUT... we're cranky because 'softies have ignored all the times we've TRIED to give feedback PLEASANTLY. We've talked and talked and talked, and now we're yelling. It seems Microsoft has heard us (finally), but now they call us cranky. I love Microsoft, I love .NET, I love ASP.NET WebForms and now I love MVC. I want to use these things and I want Microsoft to be giving good guidance on P&P. They're failing in some areas and I'd like them to be better. 'Softies typically say that Microsoft butters our bread and that we should shut up about the criticisms. Well, I want Microsoft to butter more of my bread, but right now they're holding me back by promoting BAD practices on P&P (among other areas). There is some good, but there is also SOME bad. Why can't any of the 'Softies accept that?

Chad Myers - December 3, 2007 - Sorry for that last post. I was froth-mouthed and that served very little. I was very upset by the tone of your comment/reply Rob. Your blog post is extremely arrogant and insulting to customers. No matter how irate/irrational/obtuse I am, or Ayende, or whomever, we're your customers and we're not happy/satisfied with the way things are going right now at Microsoft w/r/t .NET. There are some good things (i.e. ScottGu and the team on MVC, etc), but there are many bad things (re-inventing a lot of OSS projects without so much as a 'thanks' or 'how do you do'). I'm nervous that .NET is about to jump the shark. I say this not to be drammatic, but because it's no longer clear to me what purpose .NET serves. Originally, it appeared it was a Developer Heaven and that MSFT was really listening to developers. Now, whatever the truth may be, .NET is looking more and more like a stepping stone for Microsoft products and that the developers no longer matter -- or only matter as much as it serves Microsoft to sell other .NET-based products (think SharePoint). MSFT has not been very respectful of the ecosystem that has flourished up around .NET and has been causing pain to some members in that ecosystem/community. Microsoft is not allowing .NET to be all it can be and is, ironically, holding it back by some of these decisions. I'm not cranky, I'm nervous. I'm nervous that Microsoft is about to destroy my bread and butter and so dilute its usefulness and respect that it has, heretofore earned by merit. Summary: Please, Microsoft, stop being abusive and antagonistic with the community you helped create and encouraged. Be humble, respectful and listen. You don't have to agree, but you have to be aware and sympathetic. PARTICIPATE in the community, don't just dictate to it.

Rob Conery - December 3, 2007 - @Ayende: In terms of specifics - there is a lot you (in particular) can actually DO to change things. For instance you have the virtual "eyes" of guys of most of the MVC team, and your opinion is valued. If you wanted your neighbor to paint his house, it might be better to walk over with a paint can and a 12-pack rather than start yelling at him from your lawn :).

@Chad - thank you for the thoughtful followup :). I called you cranky - not the company :) - big difference there. I'm listening - as are Scott and Phil. Our influence is being felt (I believe).

Skype me - robconery - I want to talk to you. I think you're frustration is making you see things that just aren't there and I want to change your mind. Granted I've only been there 3 weeks now - but what I see is far different from what you see.

>>Softies typically say that Microsoft butters our bread and that we should shut up about the criticisms<<

I don't think that's the case. There's a difference between criticism and writing inflammatory, bile-driven posts :).

@Matt, @Evan - I obviously can't hire you :) BUT, if you guys want, I'll do what I can to push your resumes along :).

Rob Conery - December 3, 2007 - @Chad - didn't see that last reply. I don't get called arrogant very much :) - not my intention to "tell you off" - I just want to know more about what you feel here. I don't see the same things you do - and I think it would serve the Alt.Net community better if there was less antagonism on both fronts.

If you have the time - follow up with some more details about the "abuse" and "antagonism" you see. I don't mind the comments here - but I think it would be better to have a post as a reference point.

Also - sugar catches more flies. It's obvious you care, but when the rhetoric starts it's hard to take anyone seriously - RE any subject. So I wanna know more... do it up :).

Chad Myers - December 3, 2007 - @Rob: You just happened to be the last unlucky guy to come along and catch my wrath. There had been other posts and other 'softies complaining about ALT.NET before you came along and this was the last straw (albeit a small one). You're right, I should post, but I hate having 'yet another blog post telling MSFT what's wrong with them'. I don't know what the proper avenue for voicing these concerns. Certainly 'softies have the right to post whatever they want on their own blog, especially their personal one -- including complaining about noisy, abusive customers. Please don't ever hesitate to post about this again, but don't get angry when customers complain back, lol. Honestly, what I'd like to see is you, ScottGu, Phil, ScottHa, etc get on a conf call with Ayende and pick his brain about how you guys can make things better. The problem is, you and your team aren't the problem. You folks are the ones doing the RIGHT things. It's some of the folks at P&P that are a problem. Glenn Block is great though, he 'gets it' and is trying to do the right thing now. There are positive changes afoot and this is good. I hope the trend continues.

Dietrich - December 3, 2007 - All statements are ultimately reductive (except that last one) so statements like "20%-80%" don't bother me and as a person that belongs to the 80%, I would have to say that ratio is rather generous. I would go 5%-95%. Personally, I think the intent of Scott's blog was inclusive. But I feel you'll are missing the point. Its not about you, the company you work for, the group you belong too or even me --(to use a Clintonian phrase) "its about the client, stupid" or it's about helping people make the world a better place, one app. at a time. And as a consumer of what you 5% produce, I have to say that even though you've made incredible progress in the 7 years I've been programming -- still, what you're producing isn't very good. If you don't believe me, try this: find somebody you don't know that has a unique company or idea and wants a web site, listen to what they want, and translated that into a working site. To heighten my point (though I believe my point works with technologies you are familiar with), say they have bought into what you 5% hype and (insert your hot technology -- I'll go with ruby/rails) and demand you program it in ruby/rails, but you're unfamiliar with ruby/rails. And then give yourself a deadline. Guess what? You'll find the program system of your choice has an internal logic of its own and is un-intuitive, it's very good at creating tools that clients don't want or care about (scaffolding, migrations, one line code statements), comes with things you don't want (prototype/scriptaculous) and very repetitive and code intensive when forced into customized solutions. And the reason for this I think is simple: the company, the group you identify with has a consciousness of its' own and the chief purpose of that consciousness is to reproduce itself. So Microsoft will just produces more Microsoft and Alt.net will just produces more Alt.Net -- with not much concern for anything but itself. --Dietrich

Ayende Rahien - December 3, 2007 - > @Ayende: In terms of specifics - there is a lot you (in particular) can actually DO to change things. For instance you have the virtual "eyes" of guys of most of the MVC team, and your opinion is valued. I was under the impression that I _was_ doing things in order to change things. I am very careful with my criticism, because I want it to be a professional criticism, not a personal one. Right now I don't have any opinion on the MS MVC stuff from Microsoft, except that I am encourage by the signs of change. If there are more things that I can do to help, please let me know. @Chad: > what I'd like to see is you, ScottGu, Phil, ScottHa, etc get on a conf call with Ayende I am talking with softies often enough, I don't think that I have any issue with a softie that is not in a marketing role. Frankly, most of the stuff that I am talking about are hitting walls of corporate policy that no one seems to want to break down. I don't think that I am doing or saying anything that hasn't been said before. It may be that the net has gotten to be a big enough that my voice is heard.

Troy DeMonbreun - December 3, 2007 - Conery, you continue to amaze me with your (psychologically) balanced and grounded attitude, your transparency, willingness for diplomacy, anti-sell-out mannerisms and work/life balance.

Sadly, it's such a rarity in the developer world (or outside it).

There will be those who disagree with me, but I think many people miss the fact that it's not about being perfect at even one of those qualities, it's really about the desire to achieve all those qualities mixed with the willingness to look at oneself with as much objectivity as possible, accept the flawed reality, and set out with passion to improve each one. And at the end of the day to have the insight to realize that the pursuit of perfection is the only path to certain failure.

This comment is totally off subject and not at all about this _one_ blog post, I just feel compelled to encourage those who strike me as "those who get it". And the "it" I speak of is not .NET. ;-)

David Roh - December 3, 2007 - @Rob: I seriously disagree with the tone of your post.

I find some of the attitudes that I read here more about emotion and personal bias than about trying to make improvements in a developer's life. I started programming with Microsoft tools with Windows 3.0 beta - I can remember that when I called Microsoft support I talked with an actual Microsoft product developer. I have supported my family for many years with the tools that Microsoft has provided. On the one hand I have been very frustrated with Microsoft on many issues; however, on the other hand I am amazed at the tools, articles, examples, documentation, WebCasts, etc. that I can download from Microsoft for free.

I get very tired of the people who bash Microsoft just because it's Microsoft. I also get very tired of Microsoft continually failing to fix extremely obvious problems that typical developers face-day-in-and-day-out.

I believe that Roy Osherove's post had some very valid points - I really don't care if it's 5%-95% or 20%-80% or if one specific item belongs on the HOT-NOT side, the point that Roy is making is very valid and rather than the emotional blast against the ALT.NET mindset, we would be better served by examining the issues and trying to find better ways of developing software.

BTW, I am not part of the ALT.NET community; however, I am interested in any ideas that can improve software development and I think that they have some ideas that are certainly worth thinking about.

If I missed the point of you post, I apologize.

I do enjoy reading your posts because you are so straight forward and transparent - I believe that transparency is a good thing.

Let's work together to make better development tools and create better ways of building software.

Rob Conery - December 3, 2007 - @David: >>I seriously disagree with the tone of your post.<< Is it the tone, or the message? I didn't think it was that "toney" - let me know what parts you don't like. >>I believe that Roy Osherove's post had some very valid points<< - sure, of course. It's the polarization thing that I don't like. But as I mention, I don't have a problem at all with the Alt.Net philosophy - I just don't like the "Cool Kid" thing. >>Let's work together to make better development tools and create better ways of building software.<< Bingo.

David Roh - December 3, 2007 - @Rob:

What's important - the "Cool Kids" thing or discussing why DataSets, DataSet Designer, Entity Framework, (especially TableAdapters which I find useless in my world), etc. are on the NOT side?

I live in a world where I deal with 600 gigabyte plus databases that have schema's that change on a daily basis - a round trip through Visual Studio just because there was a small schema change is not acceptable in my world. So what is the best way of architecting for this kind of problem?

I am more interested in a discussion of the pros and cons of the HOT-NOT side - I don't even thinking about the "Cool Kids" thing.

Rob Conery - December 3, 2007 - @David - well I spose it's a good thing you have a blog then isn't it :). In terms of what you think is important, and what I should write about - well I'd say that's sort of subjective isn't it? And you're questioning my tone? :p

Ray Houston - December 3, 2007 - @Rob - I did appreciate your post. I posted a follow up here: http://www.rayhouston.com/blog/archive/2007/12/03/preserving-alt.nets-creditability.aspx

Chad Myers - December 4, 2007 - @Rob: I totally agree (and have said it repeatedly, publicly) that ScottGu is doing as much right as he can in an environment that, until recently, encouraged a lot of wrong. It's some of the other groups I have problems with, for example P&P. There are some people in there trying to do right, but there's a lot of bad all around them. It's just frustrating, as a customer, that Microsoft is doing so much hard work, but doing a lot of it all in the wrong direction, with little payoff to most customers, and actually causing a lot of damage out in the community that people like me have to try to clean up. I go into clients and spend a large percentage of my time unwinding a lot of the wrong-thinking that got them into trouble in the first place. Wrong-thinking that, for the most part originated from within Microsoft. Sure, I make more money that way, but I'd rather not have to make my money cleaning up messes, but rather using Some Really Cool Tool(TM) v1.5 Some Really Good Guidance (TM) from Microsoft. I think everyone would make more money that way, and software development, as an art, will be better because of it overall. The crankiness is an emotional response to the perception that Microsoft is not doing enough. You say 'change comes slowly' -- that's an excuse. MSFT is not the federal government or a church. You guys are a corporation with paying customers, and not serving them very well except in isolated pockets. Here's a piece of advice: Make ScottGu CEO and make his management style pervasive throughout the organization. Open up the gates and let the customer feedback flow in and we won't have to yell and get irate to get our voice heard (a la the NHibernate Mafia at the MVP Summit [or was it MiX?] that started the whole thing)

Rob Conery - December 4, 2007 - I spose what I'm trying to get out of you Chad is WTF is so wrong that it moves you (and others) to use words like "evil", "murder", "damage", "mafia", etc? I'm starting to wonder about you guys... So I'm going to get more aggressive with you - and no more evasions. What, exactly, is so wrong that it makes you "irate"? Frustration I understand - we all have it. But you seem exceedingly pissed off (as do others) and I frankly don't get it. Yah, you can case me as a "softie" if you want with all of my 3 weeks there. So forget about me - talk to the others who will read these comments. What's so evil and wrong here? What, specifically, have you had to clean up? Why do you continue working with MS tools if that's the case? If you tell me "I make money, that's why" then I'll have some even stronger words for you :). Bottom line - why are you so convinced you're right and they're wrong? You've used words like "afraid", "nervous", and "upset" (and the ones i mention above) - do you realize this is pretty much the definition of FUD?

David Roh - December 4, 2007 - @Rob:

Your response to my comments is a perfect example of Microsoft failing to listen to their customers - yes, I know it's your personal blog and yes, I know you have a right to say anything you choose; however, I believe that one of the reasons that you were hired was to give Microsoft a fresh perspective from a respected professional outside of Microsoft.

Roy Osherove's post was not about bashing Microsoft and I read nothing negative in it - what I read was about discussing the pros and cons of different technologies and trying to concentrate on fixing the problems that a lot of us developers face on a daily basis.

Instead of flaming Roy, it would have been refreshing to have read a post about the pros and cons of the HOT-NOT sides. Microsoft is busy pushing LINQ but for me an initial, cursory look seems to indicate that it's not a good solution for us - most developers will blindly follow the standard Microsoft position that LINQ is a good thing without ever questioning if it is really worth the intellectual investment cost (which I think is one of the points that Jeff Atwood was making - the 80% are those that will blindly follow the hype that LINQ is going to solve all their database access problems).

Failure to listen to customers is what pushes many people to create alternative solutions and alternative views - I would certainly consider SubSonic to be an alternative solution. It's the SubSonic mindset that I believe is one of the reasons that you were hired.

Jacob Mesu - December 4, 2007 - @David I think that Microsoft made some nice improvements to their communication towards their customers. For example the MSDN forums the presentation of new techniques on the developer blogs, they show quite interesting information about the 'internals' of Microsoft. The whole .NET framework is being accelerated by giving third party developers the possibility to make alternatives with almost every api available. I think that's something what made the .NET framework a success. I don't see LINQ as the ultimate solution for every possible situation. What I see in LINQ is the possibilities to make your own implementation by using expressions. >> What if you could actually go in and change things? It's not as crazy an idea as it seems. When can I start? :*)

Elmar - December 4, 2007 - Sorry, but I think some folks here are little bit to much focused on the "half empty glas"-side of things. I´ve never experienced such a direct and open way of communication and exchanging ideas with MS core developers before. It is informative, everyone learns and the resulting products are likely to be better for us as customers. Criticism is great if it is leading somewhere but it is also quite often the easiest role because you can´t be proven wrong. Some even say, that we can´t improve our selfs without being wrong and making mistakes constantly. I can see that MS is just doing that - making mistakes, learn and improve. Maybe I am too optimistic here but I like the general direction the the .NET Team is taking. All the best, Elmar

Rob Conery - December 4, 2007 - @Dave: I spose if you look hard enough at this post/comments, you'll find things to complain about. In terms of flaming Roy - dude it was one sentence that included a "no offense" statement - and it was in reference to the "Alt.Net" monicker. You're digging amigo. >>Instead of flaming Roy, it would have been refreshing to have read a post about the pros and cons of the HOT-NOT sides. << See, this is the thing we DON'T need. I don't need to tell someone "this thing sucks, this thing doesn't" which, by extension, is saying "You're cool, You're not". Finally - are of the opinion that when I joined Microsoft that I was brain-scanned and lost my ability to listen to people? You and Chad keep framing me as "Microsoft" and that my tone/replies are "indicative" of the things you're complaining about - and I don't get it. What, may I ask, have you actually DONE other than complain? I think my actions and statements speak for themselves and I find your comments about me to be a tad out of line.

EightyPCer - December 4, 2007 - I'd still be using classic asp if Microsoft hadn't kept things moving right along. Us Eighty Percenters tend to stay well behind the power curve.

I used to think, "if I could only run with the Cool Kids."

Then I got out of high school.

Now I think, "if I could only run."

Kelly White - December 6, 2007 - Rob, I'm not sure I "enjoyed" your post, but I definitely did identify with it. Let me explain. I've been following the ALT.Net group on/off ever since the Austin conference. At first I was challenging the group and movement, later lurking and watching and listening, and time after time I would wind up leaving it because I'm so disgusted with all the complaining and anti-MS talk. Over the past month I've been debating whether or not to start an ALT.Net special interest group in Portland (OR) for next year, but because of all the negativity and crap that is going around (e.g. what you linked to and the attitude of many responses to questions on the ALT.Net mailing list), I've pretty much given up on that and decided to instead focus my efforts on the existing PDXUX.Net group and a new XNA group. It's funny (not really), I see tons of developers in my area that would benefit from the basic ALT.Net/pragmatic principles, but I get so discouraged and frustrated by what I read on the blogs/comments/etc that I decided its not a group I want to be involved with until the people in it mature, act professional, and stop focusing on MS's past. The other funny thing is that I have this attitude and yet I'm not a 'softie. I grew up on Linux/Perl and ended up leaving that community for .NET because the Linux/Perl guys would gladly strap blinders to their heads and evangelize the FUD of past years without looking to the future. Right now it seems to me that ALT.Net is at times doing the same thing. I hope they grow out of this. I need a resource I can point people at and ALT.Net could really do an amazing amount of good. Thanks for the post, Kelly White

David Fauber - December 9, 2007 - ".NET is looking more and more like a stepping stone for Microsoft products and that the developers no longer matter - or only matter as much as it serves Microsoft to sell other .NET-based products (think SharePoint)." This hits home. I've seen a lot of wrong done based on marketing driven perceptions of SharePoint. I don't know if I can follow the "stepping stone" train of thought, but something definitely seems wrong there if you look at what marketing is telling people about creating solutions with sharepoint vs what guys like Pattison and Tisseghem advocate.