Rolling a Bubble – ASP.NET MVC is Ms-PL
I'm sure you've seen the news:
I'm excited today to announce that we are also releasing the ASP.NET MVC source code under the Microsoft Public License (MS-PL). The MS-PL is an OSI-approved open source license. The MS-PL contains no platform restrictions and provides broad rights to modify and redistribute the source code.
Phil, Hanselman, and ScottGu each wrote a bit about it - so did Miguel de Icaza (Gnome/Mono guy). It's really quite an amazing thing if you think about it: Microsoft released a major framework component under and Open Source license (Ms-PL is recognized by OSI as true Open Source).
Craziness. It reminds me of a blog post I wrote when I joined Microsoft, and I nice guy named Christian Convey gave me a quick "head's up":
Rob, you should realize that regardless of how nice the work is or how nice your immediate coworkers are, the organization you're supporting with your work is rotten to the core. You should not feel good about supporting them. I encourage you to dream big in terms of how you put your talents to use. Don't settle for this. Life is too short, and there are too many people in need.
Feelings clearly (still) run deep, and it's a mountain Microsoft needs to climb. This happened before my tenure and, to be honest, it doesn't involve me really. What involves me is what we can do from here, and what's possible. If I dwell on what came before. well honestly what good does it do anyone?
To be perfectly clear - I had nothing to do with this. This whole thing was all Phil/Hanselman/ScottGu. Well mostly ScottGu. But I like to think that "the mindset" is starting to settle in - that perhaps ScottGu, with some extra (loud) voices behind him, will keep making these kinds of decisions and pushing them forward.
This is what I do every day at work. If you don't believe me - ask this guy. I'm not sure a single team meeting goes by where I rat-hole a meeting or throw a small fit about some community thing or another (I can be difficult to work with - but I think that's why I got hired :). The good news is he's completely (well, almost) with me on most of this stuff - but I have to remind him anyway :) cause that's just me. and I like to see his French composure unravel.
I feel good about supporting this company - because they listen, and because I still work here. Because I can throw fits, and because I work with people who are committed to shaking things up and bringing about some really, really good things. But it doesn't happen over night - it takes patience, prodding, some slap-n-tickle, and little sweet talk, and eventually a gentle push (or in my case a small tantrum). As my old boss Shawn Burke put it:
It's like rolling a bubble - slow and steady my friend.
This, from a man who took 8 years to get the source pushed for the .NET framework (Shawn was the guy who thought of and pushed this whole thing).
Congratulations to ScottGu, Scott H, and Phil on this bit of work - you guys make me very very proud :)>.
Perhaps it's better not to dwell on the bad, but to ask for more of the good? For example, I would like to seel the Routing library open sourced, as well as LINQ to SQL!
"Myeah, That would be great, thanks"
expect anything of you for any reason"
No, that would be called "baiting the blogger" and it's really beneath you
Dave. I will admit I find your comments constantly negative and wonder why
you bother to read my blog. Don't think I've ever read anything from you
that's not negative or in some way "you, Rob, don't know anything". I get
this a lot, so I'm quite used to it :).
But no - I don't take offense to people who "expect anything of me for any
reason". I do get a touch annoyed when people drop in and spin up the old,
tired "M$ sucks!" rhetoric. I work in a company that, in my opinion, has
been castrated a little bit. There are so many things that we can't do
because of the past, and I, quite literally, work with that constraint
everyday. And the more I hear it - the more the management here are reminded
of "the trust that's been broken" the more the management retreats and stops
taking risks.
I'm not going to apoligize for working here, and moreover I'm going to
suggest that you, my friend, get over it. If you see this arrogance I might
suggest that you go and read some other blog and take me off your feed.
--------------------------------------------------
this: there's choices my friend. If you feel so entitled, perhaps there's
more that other communities and bloggers can give you. DHH pops to mind -
I'm sure he'd love to know what he owes you :).
It's always nice to know I'm indentured :), at least in your eyes. Can I get
you some coffee sir?
I disagree, although I suppose it depends on where you draw the line between "recognizing and dealing with" and "dwelling on". I have given Microsoft quite a bit more than "the littlest nod" over the past few years. I have dedicated the current phase of my career to .NET development because I believe it is the best development platform available in just about every aspect. Microsoft deserves a lot of credit for that. But that doesn't mean that I am simply going to forget everything else that has happened and continues to happen at Microsoft. Trust has to be earned, and it takes even more to earn it back after it has already been broken severely and repeatedly.
"I have *nothing* to prove to you my friend, and if I work like that than
what's the point?"
I disagree again. Microsoft as an organization has a LOT to prove to its customers. And an organization is made up of individual people, one of whom is you. When you made the decision to join Microsoft, you also chose to take on the reputation which Microsoft has earned for itself in the past. People are going to evaluate what you say and do against their opinion of the organization that you have chosen to associate with, for the simple and valid reason that you have chosen to associate with it.
None of that is to say that you and the rest of DevDiv *aren't* proving yourselves to the development community. Lots of good things are coming out of Microsoft lately, and its great to see that. I hope it continues. But claiming that you can ignore history, and that people should evaluate you based on your actions alone and not those of the organization that you have chosen to be a part of, is naive and unreasonable.
I'm very pleased the ASP.NET team went this way with the MVC stuff. I remember the early licensing conversations had a set of options, good to see it ended up here.
particular) before we get even the littlest nod. There's a difference, Dave,
between "recognizing and dealing with" and "dwelling on". Christian is
"dwelling on" things that have come before, and to be fair so are you...
just a little bit.
I have *nothing* to prove to you my friend, and if I work like that than
what's the point?
On one level I agree with this, and I am overjoyed to see Microsoft (at least in DevDiv) clearly moving in a new and better direction.
At the same time though, too many people have been burned by Microsoft in the past to think that simply shifting direction will make up for it. Christian's comment may have been overly dramatic, but his points were not wrong. Microsoft will have to prove that it is committed to this new direction before many people will be willing to trust it again, and that will take a long time. The fact that you started there after the shift to the new direction had already begun doesn't mean that you don't have to deal with the reputation that had already been earned, whether you were part of forming that reputation or not.
what exactly *do* you do, anyways?
what exactly *do* you do, anyways?
On one level I agree with this, and I am overjoyed to see Microsoft (at least in DevDiv) clearly moving in a new and better direction.
At the same time though, too many people have been burned by Microsoft in the past to think that simply shifting direction will make up for it. Christian's comment may have been overly dramatic, but his points were not wrong. Microsoft will have to prove that it is committed to this new direction before many people will be willing to trust it again, and that will take a long time. The fact that you started there after the shift to the new direction had already begun doesn't mean that you don't have to deal with the reputation that had already been earned, whether you were part of forming that reputation or not.
particular) before we get even the littlest nod. There's a difference, Dave,
between "recognizing and dealing with" and "dwelling on". Christian is
"dwelling on" things that have come before, and to be fair so are you...
just a little bit.
I have *nothing* to prove to you my friend, and if I work like that than
what's the point?
I disagree, although I suppose it depends on where you draw the line between "recognizing and dealing with" and "dwelling on". I have given Microsoft quite a bit more than "the littlest nod" over the past few years. I have dedicated the current phase of my career to .NET development because I believe it is the best development platform available in just about every aspect. Microsoft deserves a lot of credit for that. But that doesn't mean that I am simply going to forget everything else that has happened and continues to happen at Microsoft. Trust has to be earned, and it takes even more to earn it back after it has already been broken severely and repeatedly.
"I have *nothing* to prove to you my friend, and if I work like that than
what's the point?"
I disagree again. Microsoft as an organization has a LOT to prove to its customers. And an organization is made up of individual people, one of whom is you. When you made the decision to join Microsoft, you also chose to take on the reputation which Microsoft has earned for itself in the past. People are going to evaluate what you say and do against their opinion of the organization that you have chosen to associate with, for the simple and valid reason that you have chosen to associate with it.
None of that is to say that you and the rest of DevDiv *aren't* proving yourselves to the development community. Lots of good things are coming out of Microsoft lately, and its great to see that. I hope it continues. But claiming that you can ignore history, and that people should evaluate you based on your actions alone and not those of the organization that you have chosen to be a part of, is naive and unreasonable.
this: there's choices my friend. If you feel so entitled, perhaps there's
more that other communities and bloggers can give you. DHH pops to mind -
I'm sure he'd love to know what he owes you :).
It's always nice to know I'm indentured :), at least in your eyes. Can I get
you some coffee sir?
expect anything of you for any reason"
No, that would be called "baiting the blogger" and it's really beneath you
Dave. I will admit I find your comments constantly negative and wonder why
you bother to read my blog. Don't think I've ever read anything from you
that's not negative or in some way "you, Rob, don't know anything". I get
this a lot, so I'm quite used to it :).
But no - I don't take offense to people who "expect anything of me for any
reason". I do get a touch annoyed when people drop in and spin up the old,
tired "M$ sucks!" rhetoric. I work in a company that, in my opinion, has
been castrated a little bit. There are so many things that we can't do
because of the past, and I, quite literally, work with that constraint
everyday. And the more I hear it - the more the management here are reminded
of "the trust that's been broken" the more the management retreats and stops
taking risks.
I'm not going to apoligize for working here, and moreover I'm going to
suggest that you, my friend, get over it. If you see this arrogance I might
suggest that you go and read some other blog and take me off your feed.
--------------------------------------------------
Perhaps it's better not to dwell on the bad, but to ask for more of the good? For example, I would like to seel the Routing library open sourced, as well as LINQ to SQL!
"Myeah, That would be great, thanks"
I'm very pleased the ASP.NET team went this way with the MVC stuff. I remember the early licensing conversations had a set of options, good to see it ended up here.