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Hanalei, Hawaii Tuesday, February 09, 2010

Thoughts on SubSonic Management

I’m finally getting around to organizing SubSonic a bit and, aside from flaming me for the obvious (docs suck, project’s dead, etc) – I’d really like your help on a few things. Forums Our forums are doing decently well but managing the server/software/upgrade sucks.

Saturday, March 28, 2009

I’m finally getting around to organizing SubSonic a bit and, aside from flaming me for the obvious (docs suck, project’s dead, etc) – I’d really like your help on a few things.

Forums
Our forums are doing decently well but managing the server/software/upgrade sucks. I’ve been at it all day today and it’s not terribly fun. If you boil down what users are trying to do (get their questions answered, find answers) – it’s a bit overkill to host this stuff yourself. Especially when someone else is doing it SO MUCH BETTER.

So I have an idea. I sent Jeff an email about this and hopefully he’ll consider it. Here’s the idea:

Subdomains for Stackoverflow for Open Source project support. Subsonic.Stackoverflow.com. Win/Win.

Let’s face it – people will probably head there for answers quicker than our forums. As it stands I really don’t need a subdomain – I can just navigate to the tagged questions if I like. But having a subdomain could allow for some branding – maybe a logo or advertising support (which I could split with Jeff). Possibly even domain-specific “Hot” and “Votes” etc.

So in response to Jeff’s latest post (which I liked a lot), I’d say this kind of thing would really, really, really help. And I promise not to make fun of him anymore :).

Docs
I really like the way Wordpress does there stuff. Clean, easy to find – boom, answers. The thing is that, well, they get paid to do that stuff full time, and there’s a lot of em. I’d like to do something like this and I think I can do it easily with the platform I have now (Graffiti) – the thing I’m after is organization and help. Your thoughts on this would really help me!

Thanks for your thoughts on this…

Mongo

brunocaimar - April 8, 2009 - Rob, I believe that the best option is concentrate everything about Subsonic (docs, source and lists) in Google Code. In this way, you don't need to worry about sofware updates and things like that.
robconery - April 6, 2009 - Boom:



http://subsonicproject.com/docs

http://subsonicproject.com/docs/Doc_Writing_Guide





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runxc1 - April 6, 2009 - Just to add my two bits. The code rocks, subsonic has saved me loads of time and as you can see a lot of people follow your blog. It just looks like perhaps we(the people that follow your blog, use Subsonic) need to contribute a little bit more back. You are carrying too much of the work load. Getting rid of the forums and moving to Stack Overflow is a good move in taking some of the work off of your back. Moving everything to Google code also seems like a good move (stop the duplication of work). It seems like the last move is to give subsonicproject.com a face lift. The community would love to add documentation for you(at least I would) but we need a way to add it. Just give us a screen where we can upload documentation and have maybe three guys that read over it and then post it for everyone to see. I think we would like to give back and create tutorials we just need a venue to do so and perhaps a list of documentation that still needs to be done so that we don't duplicate someone else's work.
robconery - April 3, 2009 - Yah :( those are the old ones that got pruned :(
Paul - April 3, 2009 - I believe the posts from http://actionpack.wekeroad.com/forums are gone. I can't find the old posts in google anyplace. There were several threads that were interesting concerning multiple db usage.
robconery - April 2, 2009 - Thanks Paul - I do appreciate it :)
Paul - April 2, 2009 - Ignore all the negative stuff -- subsonic is one of the top orms. I think you should isolate yourself more from the hoi polloi by staying with the code design. This is where you are most valuable. Delegate to others on forum maintenance and crunching through the issues where possible.

ph0n3s - April 1, 2009 - Rob, in response to anyone who would imply that SubSonic, et al, may have a questionable future, bah. I must admit I just discovered SubSonic the other day, and it is exactly what I've been looking for AS AN ALTERNATIVE to the current implementation of Linq to SQL... thankfully SubSonic is waay more than a mere DAL. Brilliant. And many many thanks! - Rand
jchannon - March 30, 2009 - Rob,



Could you tell me where the Subsonic 3 webpage is?



Excuse my ignorance but I assume Subsonic 3 is an open source version of LinqToSQL with the added database support?
robconery - March 31, 2009 - Oh I know :) I'm just grumpy. I've been hard at work on 3.0 and also trying

to get 2.x into shape (project-wise). I have an issue list a mile-long in

front of me and it just sucks to keep hearing how this project is dead :(. I

didn't mean to unload on you - nothing but love for you bromoseckshul!
Dave Neeley - March 31, 2009 - I didn't mean to be offensive -- I was really just trying to say "I think you're doing the right thing". Next time I'll just say that instead.
robconery - March 31, 2009 - I can't tell you (well actually I just did) how frustrating this is for me.

I think I get DHH now - seriously. Managing forums sucks and people never

stop complaining. I'm trying to facilitate some goodness here and every year

people start bitching about "your docs suck" and "you suck" and "this

project is a sinking rock" and whatever else makes them feel empowered.

I'm just really discouraged right now and tired of people kicking my ass

over this whole thing.
Dave Neeley - March 31, 2009 - It seems we have an annual "what do we do about the forums" post, doesn't it? :) Maybe moving to SO will finally be the last of these.



As far as cleaning up what' s on codeplex -- I suggested an idea that I'm still willing to follow through on (particularly if I'm not doing it alone like Eric was): http://forums.subsonicproject.com/forums/p/4167/16750.aspx#16750
robconery - March 31, 2009 - Hi Paul - I didn't delete the old forum :) I rolled it over. It's all still

there - the thing I think you're referring to is CS's post-pruning which I

don't think I adjusted properly.

I won't delete anything from the forums - all of the bits will be there and

searchable. SO is permanent, my server's hard drive isn't. It's one reason I

want to get off of there!



Moreover it looks like I can now do wiki stuff at SO so I can pop in the

"FAQ" stuff for SubSonic from our forums. Something to do while my wife

watches 24 ;)
Paul - March 31, 2009 - Please do not blow away the existing forum. There is too much accumulated knowledge there. You deleted the older forum over a year ago and there were hundreds of informational posts there, now gone. Strongly recommend something that is permanent.
Andre Carlucci - March 31, 2009 - Talking about subsonic, where is the 3.0 version? Any dates?

Cheers and thanks for this great great great framework.



André Carlucci
mika76 - March 30, 2009 - http://code.google.com/p/subsonicthree/
aleemb - March 30, 2009 - Or you could just tag all your stuff with @subsonic or #subsonic and you don't need subdomains and all. I suspect you could do something like http://askjonskeet.com/ to restrict search to all questions with your special tags.
robconery - March 30, 2009 - Thanks Mike :). Even though this reads a bit like an epitaph - the future is

not in any question. I'll work on SubSonic until someone pries it from my

cold, dead fingers :). Even if it's just me using it - tis my baby!
robconery - March 30, 2009 - I had to take the Codeplex site down - it was causing too much confusion.

It's not deleted and I can get in there and work the issues (so can any

contributor) and I also can get the patches.
mknopf - March 30, 2009 - Rob



I wanted to let you know that while i'm no longer considering SubSonic for new projects (in favor of Linq to SQL and its tributaries) I GREATLY appreciate all the hard work from everyone who has participated in the SubSonic effort. I've used it on several decent sized projects since 2006 and it has performed well (with very few minor exceptions). While SubSonic's future may be in question it certainly was a worth while endeavor. Please pass my thanks on to CanOfFunk and all the other guys who made SubSonic what it is, your contribution to the community has been huge.



Michael Knopf
brad dunbar - March 30, 2009 - I think this is a great idea. I love subsonic, I love stackoverflow. Win/Win is right.



Also, for what its worth, I'm using Subsonic on my latest project at work and "dead" certainly doesn't describe it. I'm contrained to using .net 3.0 and Subsonic has met my needs wonderfully. Thanks for the great project.
mark - March 29, 2009 - I have to agree with developingchris on the patch flow.



I can see how the huge amount of open issues on codeplex must be intimidating, but to make them inaccessible surprises me a bit. Does codeplex not allow to leave up the issue tracker as read-only in order to access the existing issues and patches?



Instead of telling the other developers on the team to use my dll because it has all the needed fixes, I'd really prefer to tell them to use the latest stable version or revision x from the official repository. Until now at least I was able to make a list of links of all the patches on codeplex needed - but they're dead now.



I applied some of the patches found on the issues tracker as well as submitted several bug fixes and a feature enhancement (with patches). I really would like to see the bug fixes in the new 2.x version if there will ever be one. Should I contribute them again on the google code issue tracker? Will there be anyone committing them if found relevant?

Philippe Vialatte - March 29, 2009 - +1 for SO subdomain



An issue I have with the http://subsonicproject.com/ site is that it seems to be rarely updated, for example, there is still : "The current stable release is version 2.0.3." in the About page, and it is hard to find the right information.



For example, there is no "best practice" document on the net, or how to get an object for the db...Should I use objProduct = Product.FetchById(1), new ProductController().FetchById(1), or new Product(1) ?



I know that the other guys in my team had some issues with the documentation, I even started to write some FAQS/articles for French communities, to "spread the word", if there is a new effort that is started to document Subsonic (maybe a revamped subsonichelp ?), I can help (for writing docs, or translating if you want...)
robconery - March 29, 2009 - In terms of Graffiti - yah that's my fault. I need to do a much better job

at it and let's just say I'm really bad at docs :).

In terms of 3 being done in private - it's about as open as I can make it.

I'm always looking/hoping for help and George is really active on the

mailing list. We've received about 8 patches so far. The main thing I didn't

want to do is confuse people WRT supporting 3 and supporting 2.



In terms of patch flow and "core" - well it's pretty much myself (on 2.x)

diffing what's sent in. That's the flow :). I get a lot of criticism for not

being more formal but... well what can i do?



Finally - you're a committer aren't you? Or I thought you were at least :).

If you have patches i'd love to see em and moreover - if you're not on

commit and you want to be, let me know.
johnsheehan - March 29, 2009 - Chris, care to elaborate on the last comment?
Kevin Wright - March 29, 2009 - > I've closed off Codeplex today - we're in one space now



Will that include the history of changes done to SS2.1, where Codeplex seemed more imformative?
developingchris - March 29, 2009 - its a better fit for bugs than forums, seeing problems and who wants them and the resolution.



When managed properly this is a valuable tool.



But the personal attitude towards all of these solutions must be corrected.
developingchris - March 29, 2009 - thank you, tracking bugs somewhere and pathes elsewhere, is very discouraging.
developingchris - March 29, 2009 - So here are my 2 cents, being that I've had trouble with it in the past.



Graffiti is either not cutting it, or not being organized properly, because finding anything on it is painful.



Things need to be done less in private. I understand that you don't want to get flack for trying new things and spikes, but subsonic 3 should be done in a branch, in the public with the ability for others to help. This would also help because it would let the community know where 3 is an how different it really is. Which would allow us who have been using it, to release 2.2 or 2.1.1, or whatever so that we can continue to make use of the framework.



The forums are a good part of it, but I think there would be less problems is the patch flow was worked out and you could actually see where things were going. Fixing bugs in subsonic right now is a trial in self control and endurance. Removing codeplex will be a great help to this, but in general adopting an everyone help attitude as opposed to, we'll fix it for you is key. The few people who are core and can commit patches have lives and are only doing the core stuff because they actively use the project.



I myself have patched things in, but have not been able to put my fixes in a release. This meant getting my fixes to even my team mates was very painful, since they were working on the msi structure set forth.
Martin MacPherson - March 29, 2009 - You could always write something? I've heard of this fairly new framework that'll get you something working in no time. Not sure that you've heard of it but I think that it is called ASP.NET MVC? ;)
Kuli - March 29, 2009 - Hi Rob,



have you thought of hosting the forum at lefora.com? (I'm not affiliated with them in any way), but seems like it could do the job for you?



K
robconery - March 28, 2009 - I've closed off Codeplex today - we're in one space now..
johnsheehan - March 28, 2009 - UserVoice is great for feature requests, but really lacking for bug reporting and question/answer.
johnsheehan - March 28, 2009 - Great minds think alike, I was just going to email the SO team with that same suggestion. I've been following that tag for awhile and trying to help out where I can. One area SO is not so good for handling discussion topics related to the project that aren't necessarily problems with specific answers.



As far as management goes, did you think about the Google Code/Codeplex issue? Can you get away with going to just one? I think having a centralized source for code and docs would be a big win, and Google Code looks superior to Codeplex right now for those things. And it would definitely be nice to have a Google Group for contributors.
josh - March 28, 2009 - subdomains for SO would be brilliant.
just3ws - March 28, 2009 - What about using UserVoice instead of traditional forums? Scott Hanselman is using it for BabySmash, and it has, IMO, a very nice intuitive interface. And they have subdomains like how WordPress.com does.



http://babysmash.uservoice.com

http://uservoice.com



I haven't configured it yet, but I am also going to use the service for my site.

http://nuscia.uservoice.com
Jim Flaxhran - April 11, 2009 - Use a wiki! I love those!
Gecko